Incursions Nerf ?
CSM meeting minutes – Iceland 7th to the 9th of December 2011 (Pag. 13-15)
Present: CCP Soundwave, CCP Bettik
CSM meeting minutes – Iceland 7th to the 9th of December 2011 (Pag. 13-15)
http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf
CSM meeting minutes – Iceland 7th to the 9th of December 2011 (Pag. 13-15)
Present: CCP Soundwave, CCP Bettik
This session started off with a discussion of overall site balancing. The main issue identified and reiterated many times through the session was that the site classes are very unbalanced. The CSM pointed out to CCP that at present, almost all of the activity and issues with Incursions relate to the fact that Vanguard class sites are substantially easier and more profitable than any other class site. They have the highest payout for the time investment and the minimal risk involved, so these sites are causing overpopulation in Incursion areas and as a result other class sites are not run much at all. While it was generally agreed that Vanguard sites may need to be adjusted down by slightly increasing the risk or decreasing the rewards the other class sites (Scout, Assault, and HQ) need buffs to bring their risk/reward more in line. Everyone agreed that the value of the site should scale according to the effort, number of people you have to coordinate, and the time spent in the site. The end result should be the people who can coordinate the larger groups for larger sites should be rewarded properly for their time and effort.
More detailed conversations were carried out in the following specific areas:
* Individual site variations – The CSM identified that more variety and diversity in the individual spawns of wave/site would be welcome. They were careful to point out constraints in these variations should be kept in line with the site class. Each class site should have a min/max variation that can be determined by players, but each spawn may vary more towards DPS or more EWAR for example. CCP agreed that if individual sites were less predictable it may put some of the original challenge back into incursions, and potentially reduce the number of pure faction ship fleets due to a potentially higher risk. This would in turn help competition and population issues by allowing more players to compete on a more level playing field. While no timelines were set, CCP indicated a strong desire to implement changes along these lines, and that they already have most of the tools needed to implement them.
* Site DPS – It was pointed out that, while more DPS or more ewar in sites may be a welcome challenge, the CSM advised CCP to be cautious about significant changes to alpha. The mothership sites were cited as a specific example where bomber waves almost exclusively target a certain type of logistic ship and they are insta-popped. Both CSM and CCP agreed that risk in these sites should exist, but the CSM felt this specific case might be a bit extreme. CCP acknowledge this issue and would keep it in mind when working on site diversification.
* Fleet consistency across sites – The CSM raised concerns about how some Incursions sites force fleets to completely reship in order to complete them. They pointed out that while this is an interesting concept, in practice, players want to be able to put together a fleet for a certain class of sites and be able to do them with only minor fleet setup variations. Players are more willing to adjust modules but most do not like having to reship completely. The further contributes to why these sites and even class of sites become very unpopular and are not run. CCP generally agreed and stated they are interested in adjusting this fleet splitting when player acceptance is not what they expected.
* Bugs and exploits – Prior to the Winter Summit, the CSM polled key members of the public incursion community, and with their assistance the CSM was able to present to CCP a list of the top player concerns, bugs, and known exploits within the incursion feature. The game and dungeon designers were very interested in these details and asked that CSM continue to pass them on. If players encounter bugs or exploits, they are encouraged file bug reports and/or reach out to a CSM representative to help focus attention on them. Overall CCP showed a strong desire to address known bugs and exploits and has already started to address some through the Crucible expansion.
* Site competition mechanics – In this topic, the CSM voiced some minor concerns that have been received from players that the site competition mechanics may benefit from more variation, more than simply “more dps = win”. The idea of more sites spawning at a time came up as a means to reduce the need for competition, but there was no consensus whether that would be a good thing in the long run. The population issue may also affect this topic but the CSM felt (based on community feedback) that in general, more sites would not solve any specific issue and would likely compound existing problems. It was pointed out that, increasing the risk and unpredictability (as previously discussed) might lower the number of ‘shiny fleets’ and in turn help level the playing field, so the pure DPS mechanic was more even and fun for players. Both CSM and CCP acknowledge this might be an area to look into, but that it’s a challenging balancing act. No specific direction was set as a result.
* Population density – Population density and overpopulation was a continuous topic through this session, and there were many suggestions tossed around in order to help it. When all is said and done, the main point is that population issues are likely best handled by addressing specific points of concern that are causing the population to be focused in certain areas. By increasing the number of Scout, Assault, and HQ sites that are run by players, and making them more worthwhile, the population will naturally spread out. By creating more variations and a bit more risk, the playing field may become a bit more level, making competition for sites more fun and meaningful. Overall CSM and CCP seem to agree that no direct action would be taken to specifically attack population issues, but they would be kept in mind as a byproduct of all other decisions made.
* Incursion Spawn rate too fast – It was brought up that many in the community feels that the overall Incursion event ends too soon. It was noted that the mothership site can be spotted in a very short time causing the actual incursion to only last a few days in high sec. Both CSM and CCP expressed a desire to increase the duration of an incursion. CCP was clear they want to keep the completion of the incursion event as organic as possible rather than putting in arbitrary tasks that have to be done, as that forces content on to players rather than allowing them to do it themselves. The CSM agreed with this sentiment and that perhaps some simple minimum timers on certain things could help extend the duration of a single incursion as needed.
* Geography of incursion spawn rate – Since many in the incursion community has raised this issue, the CSM questioned if anything would be done to spread out the Incursions to more regions, as today they mostly spawn in Amarr space. CCP stated, as many players already know, that the system is working as designed. It’s just that Amarr space is so large, that statistically it’s more likely to get an Incursion. While CCP acknowledged the fact of the matter, there were no specific action items taken to make changes at this time.
Miscellaneous – A few other miscellaneous topics that came up were:
* Tagging: The tagging feature is used a lot in incursion fleets but the ability to tag items in the UI is painful. CCP acknowledged this issue and agreed it needs to be improved because it’s an important part of leading Incursions fleets.
* FC management: it was stated that FCs in larger Incursions fleets would like the ability to better monitor things like fleet numbers because it’s tied tightly to rewards
* Eve Voice: it was stated at another point in the summit that Eve Voice was a valuable Incursion fleet tool and any improvements that can be made here would be appreciated by the players.
To close the meeting the CSM stressed how the social aspects of Incursions are one their most valuable components and the Incursion feature has become very popular. CCP agrees that this is a successful feature and they strongly support iterating it now in order to improve it, rather than letting it get old and stale. CCP promised to keep CSM and players updated as they develop plans in this area.
More detailed conversations were carried out in the following specific areas:
* Individual site variations – The CSM identified that more variety and diversity in the individual spawns of wave/site would be welcome. They were careful to point out constraints in these variations should be kept in line with the site class. Each class site should have a min/max variation that can be determined by players, but each spawn may vary more towards DPS or more EWAR for example. CCP agreed that if individual sites were less predictable it may put some of the original challenge back into incursions, and potentially reduce the number of pure faction ship fleets due to a potentially higher risk. This would in turn help competition and population issues by allowing more players to compete on a more level playing field. While no timelines were set, CCP indicated a strong desire to implement changes along these lines, and that they already have most of the tools needed to implement them.
* Site DPS – It was pointed out that, while more DPS or more ewar in sites may be a welcome challenge, the CSM advised CCP to be cautious about significant changes to alpha. The mothership sites were cited as a specific example where bomber waves almost exclusively target a certain type of logistic ship and they are insta-popped. Both CSM and CCP agreed that risk in these sites should exist, but the CSM felt this specific case might be a bit extreme. CCP acknowledge this issue and would keep it in mind when working on site diversification.
* Fleet consistency across sites – The CSM raised concerns about how some Incursions sites force fleets to completely reship in order to complete them. They pointed out that while this is an interesting concept, in practice, players want to be able to put together a fleet for a certain class of sites and be able to do them with only minor fleet setup variations. Players are more willing to adjust modules but most do not like having to reship completely. The further contributes to why these sites and even class of sites become very unpopular and are not run. CCP generally agreed and stated they are interested in adjusting this fleet splitting when player acceptance is not what they expected.
* Bugs and exploits – Prior to the Winter Summit, the CSM polled key members of the public incursion community, and with their assistance the CSM was able to present to CCP a list of the top player concerns, bugs, and known exploits within the incursion feature. The game and dungeon designers were very interested in these details and asked that CSM continue to pass them on. If players encounter bugs or exploits, they are encouraged file bug reports and/or reach out to a CSM representative to help focus attention on them. Overall CCP showed a strong desire to address known bugs and exploits and has already started to address some through the Crucible expansion.
* Site competition mechanics – In this topic, the CSM voiced some minor concerns that have been received from players that the site competition mechanics may benefit from more variation, more than simply “more dps = win”. The idea of more sites spawning at a time came up as a means to reduce the need for competition, but there was no consensus whether that would be a good thing in the long run. The population issue may also affect this topic but the CSM felt (based on community feedback) that in general, more sites would not solve any specific issue and would likely compound existing problems. It was pointed out that, increasing the risk and unpredictability (as previously discussed) might lower the number of ‘shiny fleets’ and in turn help level the playing field, so the pure DPS mechanic was more even and fun for players. Both CSM and CCP acknowledge this might be an area to look into, but that it’s a challenging balancing act. No specific direction was set as a result.
* Population density – Population density and overpopulation was a continuous topic through this session, and there were many suggestions tossed around in order to help it. When all is said and done, the main point is that population issues are likely best handled by addressing specific points of concern that are causing the population to be focused in certain areas. By increasing the number of Scout, Assault, and HQ sites that are run by players, and making them more worthwhile, the population will naturally spread out. By creating more variations and a bit more risk, the playing field may become a bit more level, making competition for sites more fun and meaningful. Overall CSM and CCP seem to agree that no direct action would be taken to specifically attack population issues, but they would be kept in mind as a byproduct of all other decisions made.
* Incursion Spawn rate too fast – It was brought up that many in the community feels that the overall Incursion event ends too soon. It was noted that the mothership site can be spotted in a very short time causing the actual incursion to only last a few days in high sec. Both CSM and CCP expressed a desire to increase the duration of an incursion. CCP was clear they want to keep the completion of the incursion event as organic as possible rather than putting in arbitrary tasks that have to be done, as that forces content on to players rather than allowing them to do it themselves. The CSM agreed with this sentiment and that perhaps some simple minimum timers on certain things could help extend the duration of a single incursion as needed.
* Geography of incursion spawn rate – Since many in the incursion community has raised this issue, the CSM questioned if anything would be done to spread out the Incursions to more regions, as today they mostly spawn in Amarr space. CCP stated, as many players already know, that the system is working as designed. It’s just that Amarr space is so large, that statistically it’s more likely to get an Incursion. While CCP acknowledged the fact of the matter, there were no specific action items taken to make changes at this time.
Miscellaneous – A few other miscellaneous topics that came up were:
* Tagging: The tagging feature is used a lot in incursion fleets but the ability to tag items in the UI is painful. CCP acknowledged this issue and agreed it needs to be improved because it’s an important part of leading Incursions fleets.
* FC management: it was stated that FCs in larger Incursions fleets would like the ability to better monitor things like fleet numbers because it’s tied tightly to rewards
* Eve Voice: it was stated at another point in the summit that Eve Voice was a valuable Incursion fleet tool and any improvements that can be made here would be appreciated by the players.
To close the meeting the CSM stressed how the social aspects of Incursions are one their most valuable components and the Incursion feature has become very popular. CCP agrees that this is a successful feature and they strongly support iterating it now in order to improve it, rather than letting it get old and stale. CCP promised to keep CSM and players updated as they develop plans in this area.
CSM meeting minutes – Iceland 7th to the 9th of December 2011 (Pag. 13-15)
http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf